viko_mx #fundie

viko_mx #fundie phys.org

As can be expected human knowledge is sand tower. Without the help of our Creator our outlook and knowledge will remain extremely limited. It is physically imposible to get more knowledge from the Earth. But humanists must maintain the myth of endless human passiblities of the proud denied their Creator.

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old comment by

Yes, and because of our reliance upon a centuries old fairy tale book for answers we had a thousand years of scientific and cultural stagnation. Dark Ages, ring any bells?
And only afterwards, when we started to look for answers elsewhere did our development increase at an exponentional rate.

But that must be a huuuuuuge coincidence. Surely putting our heads back in the sand must make that amazing progress even better! *SARCASM*

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EDIT:

@ The Mimic Octopus

Please, then, enlighten me. Why is my statement 100% ignorant falsehood? Didn't the Middle Eges last 1000 years (500-1500)? Wasn't the Catholic Church in power then in Europe? Wasn't their a significant lack of scientific achievement, as any discoveries that contradicted the bible were silenced by the church? Isn't the Renaissance distinguished by bringing an end to that era and with it significant changes? Isn't our scientific development increasing ever faster the further it gets?

So then what exactly is so incredibly ignorant about my claims? Please tell me, I really want to know.

old comment by SpukiKitty

Look, bub; Deity gave us brains so we could use them.
Deity is also neither your Demiurge nor is it likely separate from Creation.

But even if I saw Deity as a "Big Guy In The Sky" and was even a die-hard Christian, I would think that denying the use of brains, intellect, human will, sexuality and other things Deity gifted us with as being the greatest BLASPHEMY! Deity works on a mostly hands-off basis, helping us to help ourselves.

You want to deny these things. You want to make us helpless and useless. Your Demiurge and your filthy belief system is nothing but a cover for mass-control by sexist egotistical lying hypocritical bigot power-hungry authoritarians who like to rule over others for funsies!

Deists, Pantheists, Atheists, Agnostics and Non-Frum Theists and Spiritual-But-Not-Religious folks see through your bullcrap!

If there's anyone destroying the Christian Faith, it's YOU GUYS! Most folks, regardless of belief system love and respect Jesus and Christianity....as taught by Jesus in the Bible! It is actually a BEAUTIFUL system of life and ethics....promoting peace, kindness, unconditional love and forgiveness, altruism, humility, etc.

Sure; There's a couple of questionable pronouncements from Jesus but otherwise...He's kosher.

Christianity, practiced PROPERLY, could've been the most beautiful, beloved and humanity-enriching thing in the world.

But instead, you turned it into an extension of the worst parts of the Hebrew Testament (that even most Jews are weirded out by), made Jesus one with The Demiurge, used as a tool of power, greed, genocide, bigotry, sexism and conquest and use it to deal with the fear that someone, somewhere, is happy and having fun!

I may be a NeoPagan but I respect Christianity and Jesus. I respect what it could have been.

I call your ilk BARABBANS....after "Barabbas" or "Bar Abbas" (Son of the Father).

I realized the symbolism in that part of the "Passion" myth. Jesus was a man who taught love and nonviolence but Barabbas was a raging, vengeful member of the Zealots and considers a violent terrorist and murderer (granted, the Zealots were fighting for the Jews freedom but still....). Barabbas' name meant "Son of the Father", implying the symbolism of "Messiah".

Barabbas represents the false, frummy, violent, vengeful, "kill everything", pseudo-Christ. Jesus, however, was the real deal who taught a more peaceful path to freedom for the Jewish people and the rest of humanity. However; the world chose Barabbas over Jesus....just as the American Wingnuts chose "Republican Jesus" over Jesus Christ.

Sometimes I feel that I should become a ChristoPagan. I seem to have a lot of insights on interpreting things in the Bible and genuinely feel that Christianity needs to be revamped and reclaimed from the Barabbans.

Christianity as a Liberal, Universalist, Interfaith Faith of Faiths! Like Baha'i only as a Judaic offshoot rather than an Islamic one. I see a blend of Zoroastrian, Jewish, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Confucian, Kemetic and Classical Mystery Religion in it. Something that unites rather than divides.

Earth's people needs to be united.

old comment by Kuno

@#1930675:

http://www.academia.edu/3313369/There_was_nothing_dark_about_the_Dark_Ages_The_Medieval_Origins_of_Science

http://www.medievalists.net/2014/02/04/why-the-middle-ages-are-called-the-dark-ages/

(Thanks again to Mayasmom for those two links)

Dark Ages: “The term once characterized the majority of the Middle Ages, or roughly the 6th to 14th centuries, as a period of intellectual darkness between extinguishing the "light of Rome" after the end of Late Antiquity, and the rise of the Italian Renaissance in the 14th century. This definition is still sometimes found in popular use, but increased recognition of the accomplishments of the High Middle Ages has led to the label being restricted in application. Since the 20th century, it is frequently applied to the earlier part of the era, the Early Middle Ages (c. 5th10th century). However, many modern scholars who study the era tend to avoid the term altogether for its negative connotations, finding it misleading and inaccurate for any part of the Middle Ages.
[]
The medieval period is frequently caricatured as supposedly a "time of ignorance and superstition" which placed "the word of religious authorities over personal experience and rational activity." However, rationality was increasingly held in high regard as the Middle Ages progressed. The historian of science Edward Grant, writes that "If revolutionary rational thoughts were expressed [in the 18th century], they were made possible because of the long medieval tradition that established the use of reason as one of the most important of human activities". Furthermore, David Lindberg says that, contrary to common belief, "the late medieval scholar rarely experienced the coercive power of the church and would have regarded himself as free (particularly in the natural sciences) to follow reason and observation wherever they led".
[]
Other misconceptions such as: "the Church prohibited autopsies and dissections during the Middle Ages", "the rise of Christianity killed off ancient science", and "the medieval Christian church suppressed the growth of natural philosophy", are all cited by Ronald Numbers as examples of widely popular myths that still pass as historical truth, although they are not supported by current historical research. They help maintain the idea of a "Dark Age" spanning through the medieval period.”

(bolding mine)

old comment by The Mimic Octopus

>Canadiest
"Remember who controlled much of the documentation of events during the Dark Ages as well."
Hello, conspiracy theorist!

The Middle Ages are an incredibly fascinating era. Sure, they were not a Golden Age. But they were not GRIMDARK Game of Thrones flat-earth burn-the-witch Dark Ages, either. It is absurd to assign a simplistic description to an entire millenium. Yes, there was bigotry, war, oppression, pestilence. But there was also rebuilding, the spread of civilisation and urbanisation to Northern Europe, many innovations in mechanics, metallurgy and architecture, the roots of most modern Western nations, the first attempts to regulate war, massive conflicts between Papal authority, worldly rulers and local religious powers, great epics and poetry, and so much more. Indeed, in my opinion (not a mediaevalist or even a historician, and I would not go so far as to call myself an amateur historician, but at least a very intelligent interested layman with relatively solid knowledge thereof), there is no real difference between the Late Middle Ages and the Renaissance (a term invented by arrogant Italians who derided everything of transalpine origin as "Gothic", i.e. barbaric).
I believe that one cannot understand Europe - and thanks to Colonialism, for better and for worse, the rest of the modern world - unless one understands the Middle Ages.

old comment by Kuno

@Canadiest:

Please check out the links I provided. The thought that the church in the Middle Ages did actively try to suppress any proto-science that was happening is a misconception. It was among other things the time when the first universities in Europe were founded by the church.

I do not say that it was all perfect, but the thought that an era spanning 1000 years and a whole continent can be simplified to some Dark Ages is a fallacy and historians and archaeologists have long abandoned it in light of documents and evidence showing the opposite.

Technological and mathematical progress, for example, did happen in the Middle Ages. Castles and monasteries went from simple wooden structures to the impressive and complex stone buildings still standing today and churches got more and more big and complex, culminating in large cathedrals, also still standing today. The three-field-system was developed, a large improvement to the system used back in the Roman days, which in turn helped a massive increase of population. Which again in turn helped the cities to become more important and develop into technological centers, like Nürnberg for example which was famous for its artisans and clock-builders.

The persecution of scientists (or what we would call scientists today) didn’t start until the very end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance. (Nor did they church persecute witches for most of the Middle Ages. In fact, until very late the very belief that witches even exist was considered heresy. So accusing someone of being a witch would be more likely get the accuser into trouble with the church than the accused. This also changed only very late in the Middle Ages.)

If you look at all the banning of books or the prosecution of people like Galileo and Bruno, they all happened either at the very end of the Middle Ages or at the beginning of the Renaissance.

During the Middle Ages the church was more concerned with theological questions and stamping out “heresies” like Arianism and Catharism or rather minutiae of Christian doctrine. Look at The Name Of The Rose (both movie and book) for an example of such a dispute or at the Albigensian Crusade.

For more, please see this discussion I had with Mr Spak about this topic ~~earlier this year~~ last year in another thread: http://fstdt.com/QuoteComment.aspx?QID=115409&Page=2 The relevant part of the thread starts with comment #1896843 by Mayasmom.

PS: Also, what the Octopus said.

viko_mx #fundie phys.org

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